My Digital Diary

November 24, 2007

Third Division merits a cry

The following post is not to justify reservation or start a debate again  but its kind of a counter argument and some  cynical facts ; just to share some knowledge with you guys.

Lets start with a real story.

It was around 1856 when the Madras College came into being. But, from the start, it faced a peculiar problem – the college building had come up with all other infrastructural facilities, and professors from England, but not enough students to make the college viable.
India has a big pool of historians who know every detail of the modern history, and many have mastered even the world history. What they know not, or don’t like to know, is the story of the College, and the history of modern education. They took no pains in explaining as why the College had shortage of students, and how that problem was to be resolved. They would also not tell as to when, why and for whom was Third Class considered as pass.
 
Till the Madras college came into being some where in 1850s, the pass marks required at Intermediate level was a minimum of 40 per cent, and First and Second were the only divisions. 
 
On the insistence of the Indians (read Brahmans), the pass percentage requirement was brought down to 33 per cent, and Third Division introduced. The College soon got enough students to justify its existence. By all accounts, this was the first victory the merit lobby had won in the past one millennium. We can understand, and sympathise with them.
 
As said by an author:

“While I have begun my research in procuring those crucial documents from archives, the Report of the Indian Universities Commission (1902) gives an idea. While discussing the results of the Matriculation examination for the year 1901, the report (page 45) says: “We were told that at Calcutta 1,400 more candidates would have failed had the standard in English been 40 percent of the marks instead of 33 per cent.” 
 
Many a merit theorists cite failure rate of Dalit/Adivasi students at Medical/Engineering/Management Colleges, which is often less than a percent, as a reason to scrap reservations. 
The meritorious historians however, would not tell the failure rate of their own people. According to Progress of Education in India (1922-1927), Vol. 1, Page 40, the failure rate of students in MBBS stood at 47 per cent, and in Engineering, at 34 per cent.
 
They would also not tell us as how during 1860s’, their ancestors were afraid of taking science and mathematics as subjects of studies, and were in fact, bribed to study sciences and medicine. Despite huge failure rates, the British government continued promoting science education amongst them.
 
Despite being victims of social segregation, and economic deprivation, and as the newest entrant in the world of learning, Dalit/Adivasis never demanded bringing down pass marks to, say, 20 per cent? 
Did Dalits/Adivasis demand adding a Fourth division?
Or, did Dalits/Adivasis demand any reservation in examination for getting degrees?
 
What all Dalits have insisted is reservation during admissions, and many of them do better than those students who had higher percentage of marks at the time of admissions.what difference it would make between 70 per cent and 90 per cent at plus two level, or similar situation in an entrance test.
Can any one say with certainty that the 70 per cent mark sheet holder is superior to the 50 per cent mark sheet holder in intelligence?  
Can any one say with certainty that those who pass with first class are necessarily better than the second class degree holders at work places?
So in short when  our grandparents(not dalits) were struggling from maths and science and were getting passed  with atleast 33 percent and they made up build the nation (note the dalits were out of sight)the britisher’s no matter wat gave them education and brought them up. So can one say why did they struggled?Bco’s if u pull out a child from slum and start teaching him maths and science ,IN GENERAL he will struggle and not score 90% or so.So u r grandparents struggled so u r comfortable now. 

12 Comments »

  1. very interesting first some points to counter

    1. lets start with the veracity of ur real story
    how is it real and who is the author/source?
    2. On the insistence of the Indians (read Brahmans)
    why only them – there are other upper castes too wat about the kshatriyas?
    3. failure rate of Dalit/Adivasi students at Medical/Engineering/Management Colleges, which is often less than a percent, as a reason to scrap reservations.
    what about the dropout rate and wastage of seats?

    4. On the insistence of the Indians (read Brahmans), the pass percentage requirement was brought down to 33 per cent, and Third Division introduced.
    what about the dilution of education standards and easing of the portion and correction method
    in the 50s and onwards?

    5. what about merit if the Indians (read Brahmans) have such high failure rates why do we need quotas? why cant the dalits and adivasis compete with them
    and where do the rich obcs and dalits who dont deserve reservation fit in?

    6. lastly what about quality basic education?

    Comment by prax — November 24, 2007 @ 7:48 pm

  2. Can any one say with certainty that the 70 per cent mark sheet holder is superior to the 50 per cent mark sheet holder in intelligence?
    Can any one say with certainty that those who pass with first class are necessarily better than the second class degree holders at work places?

    well then why have exams and shenanegans like them
    the politicians will always have their quotas
    if not their kids learn abroad

    the sad thing is rich mediocre dalits with pass class or in their 50s who cant even do math read write correct english take benifit of reservations
    the brilliant son of a mochi may either have to do his fathers job.

    Comment by prax — November 24, 2007 @ 7:52 pm

  3. This story is a cut paste from a published articel by ChandraBhan Prasad..a columnist of Daily Pioneer.Well Education was the perorgative Brahmins from long back vedic period.Other uppercaste involvement in education at that time is really questionable or meagre.My citing only brahmins has infuriated you.sorry if you are a brahmin.Involvement of other uppercaste during that time is really questionable and thats my assumption .No Proofs man.Easing of education standards was for everyone.Dalits and forward caste are not on the same level of living standards ,education ,social order and prosperity..Competition shud happen between ppl standing at same level and on the same platform.Not the otherway round.

    why there is Payment seats and management quotas? won’t the rich have reservation there?Drop outs are from this category too..so scrap them too?
    I ceratinly agree with your mentioning about Quality basic education.
    If its provided to everyone in indian schools sooner there wud be no need for reservation.
    Exams are certainly needed but its not the only barometer to judge anyone’s capability based on a difference of some 10-20%.If you read the eligibility criteria for any degree course,its
    50% and for SC/ST’s its 45%..marginal difference of 5%.Even a person from Fwd caste can take admission with just 50% marks.its not that only SC’s are taking.

    You are only concerned about finding pitfalls in reservations by narrowing on a marginal section of people(rich SC’s OBS) which is not a good reason for scrapping reservations.
    The creamyLayer formed 2day is bcos of reservation bcos only education was the tool to fight poverty and discrimination.Again taking a percentage of the riches among ST&SC’s would clear your thinking.Going forward if need be there, such ppl can be kept out of reservation benefits.

    Comment by nitin — November 25, 2007 @ 11:47 am

  4. the whole article seems like a standard bunch of crap dished out by the proponents of quotas!

    im sorry im for scrappin quotas period
    they breed inferiority and mediocrity
    first in India it wasnt so much the brahmins but the obcs that ruled states they made the laws-well the brahmins had a part but that was mainly in matters of religion.
    brahmins are the minority population and are easy pickings and blame donkeys or hate idols for politicians – this is nt about religion but about politics and vote banks

    why there is Payment seats and management quotas – well because they own the institutions they will want their bunch to get seets plus this is education business. Why does money open doors??
    why r there politicians quotas????

    secondly u were comparing lowerin standards for upprs to pass during british times
    during post independence times the standards fell a lot more

    eligibility criteria for any degree course
    agreed but guess what do people get seats on eligibility criteria? or on merit lists ?
    when the cutoff for med or engg is 97% how will a unfit 50% dalit fare?

    the sad thin is if the dalits lag behind then first pick the most intelligent among them at school level and horne their skills with state funds if needed but make sure they do somethin in life
    finally it is not the degree but a persons competence that counts

    Comment by Prax — December 10, 2007 @ 6:33 am

  5. not a good reason for scrapping reservation?

    i think it is sufficient the persons it intends to benifit never get the benefit now do they ?
    it is another means for rich bcs obcs bts etc to garner benifits
    thats why i said the intelligent mochis son who deserves reservation will most likely never get its benifit as he would prioritise taking care of his family needs over his due to eco problems
    and finally when will tis stop
    Ambedkar said 10 yrs bt tis 50 yrs since and reservations r increasing
    and in a democracy this is simply unfair
    even the courts are decrying the govts policy

    Comment by Prax — December 10, 2007 @ 6:39 am

  6. Hmmm…prax…ur comments seem to be really bold. I really liked your sentence “In a democracy this is simply unfair”.

    Now take this…..point wise….

    1) After denying dalits to be humans for thousands of years, you think in 50 years these people who lived like animals to be civilized enough and compete with the brahmin rascals.
    2) Why only brahmis, because its the brahmin who started, wrote and propogated all this upper caste and lower caste. Tell these fucking brahmins to come out in open and tell everyone that there is no such thing as caste. Tell all these brahmins to do a rally, propogate equality and come on the roads. They wont. Why wud all other communities are responsible. If were the head of some system and all ur subordinates are real rascals…i wud held u responsible for all this.
    3) U say that intelligent from dalits should get chance to study and prove themselves. So wht shud their aim be after studying? Go to US, work and enjoy. Well one of the greatest from dalits (Ambedkar) studied and studied so much that at his era very few could match his wits. He said all dalits, obcs and other communities to study, gain knowledge and propogate knowledge.
    4) U should be happy my friend, its the third generation of dalits who are living now with degrees in their hand. With good positions and even power now(mayawati). So now they will do more so that others from them will be able to get above.
    5) Ambedkar did not say 10 years my frnd…pls do not quote false. Ambedkar said, follow reservation for 10 years and if the parliament feels that there is need to increase the number of years for reservation because the goal was not achived, then the parliament can increase the tenure. U can see how every government that ruled india, could implement reservation properly and seriously and the parliament has to increase the tenure.
    6) Congress has ruled most of the years in india after independence and what have they done for the benefit of dalits is well known fact. But dalits were coming up slowly. They have now come to such a point that they are now able to face u facists, who were well off till all these year, but as they see that they have to share their comfort.
    7) This is going to happen, this was to happen, u people will surely scream, try to prove that dalits are selfish, not able to compete, politicians are morons, bring out rallies, fight with government, say that hinduism is in trouble, and then suddenly u will realise that integrity of the nation is in danger…Ha ha ha… I am still waiting when u will start calling dalits as danger for the country. But my dear friend, day has come that a dalit will not see in ur face eye to eye and tell you, u suck…..ur ideas are inspired by manu….and….u will get back…where ever u write.
    8) Rest assured my frnd…the day has come that all you hypocrits will have to throw away ur manuvism and accept dalits as ur own fellow countries.
    9) If u think all dalits are in very good position then i can imagine how well you have been raised, and much u know about india, its social plight and how massess live in this country still.
    10) If you are a good reader, try to read the book “A million mutinies” by V.S. Naipaul. You will realise why this country even if is getting prosperous, the masses are getting poor. There is a undercurrent of instability, frustration, anger among masses which comes up as mutinies all around india.

    Can write a lot…but i want to hear more from you…i really like you…u r the perfect example i was searching all these days….lets make this hot….

    Comment by Jacob — January 15, 2008 @ 5:20 am

  7. ok so ur dalit and christian …..
    so u must be also into the bandwagon of gettin reservation

    most of what u write comes from the stables of so called dalit intellectuals who want to rewrite history
    as it is they have most to gain from reservation….

    the so called manuwadi system – as maya used to repeat – was a social order enforced by the shatriyas or the people in power – who were obcs

    reservation kills merit and promotes corruption – plain and simple
    america has positive reinforcement in equal opportunities and see how the blacks have prospered

    in india there now as it is there are dalits and reservation dalits
    the dalits r still backward res dalits are ones who have benefited but want benifits for their kids and their kids and so on

    reservation was mandated in the provisions for a decade ie 10 yrs,,,
    and btw a brahmin: benegal n rao played a substantial part in writing the constitution

    Comment by Prax — January 15, 2008 @ 6:39 am

  8. You dont have to care about, i am a dalit or a christian…..I have a point and i can put

    it forth with you. Lets discuss on the subject. Same case goes with you too.

    Dalits in their three generations have come up from gutter to a point where they can

    answer you all who were intellectuals since centuries with monopoly. If the

    reservations were implemented properly by the congress government for atleast one

    decade, then things wud had be a lot better today. But all the uppercastes in

    congress, never cared about it. Ambedkar thought that atleast after independence

    congress would think for all the sections of society. But he was wrong. These

    hypocrits always manipulated with reservation.

    My dear friend prax, I dont know about your knowledge of india, its history and its

    social order for thousands of years. I understand that history books of schools are

    compelled to be in brief. But it would had been better that if you are making a point

    on some topic, just research a little more than the school history books. Manu system

    was written by a brahmin sage called manu, somewhere in 600 BC. Brahmins who

    had the sole monopoly of reading and writing wanted to keep the top most position in

    the hierarchy. If you think all these shatriyas enforced manuwadi system, then u r a

    big fool. Remember that every king had a royal priest who gave advise to kings on

    behalf of god that do this and god wud be pleased and dont do this, else god will be

    angry. If you dont know, Hindu king Ram killed a dalit name shambuka on the advise

    of a royal priest, because that dalit was uttering slokas and it was only brahmins that

    were supposed to do that. Manusmriti was a book written by brahmin manu which

    was like a consitution for hindu rulers and they had to follow it.

    Hmm….now you are talking international. Okay lets talk about America. In that

    country there was a big discrimination done on blacks by whites. It just began to

    happen that the blacks had become very downtrodden, no one to represent them,

    living under the dark and then crime started to increase. America realised that if

    blacks are not given equal oppurtunity then even if the country becomes rich the

    society may fall. There can be crimes, mutiny everywhere. Just for ur info, please

    refer the following link which will help you to know support, opposition and disputes in

    America about Affirmative Actions which is still continued for around the same

    number of years as india has.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

    There is a cheap new that is spread everywhere that there are dalits and there are

    reservation dalits in india…and bla bla bla…
    I will tell you…..there are lakhs and lakhs of dalits in rural village all over india, who

    even do not know wht is reservation. After so many years of independence, if you

    come to know about the plight of these dalits, ur hairs wud stand on the end. The

    situation is that dreadful. There were very very few dalits who for job, money or

    anything came to cities and got to know about reservation. They too had to do suffer

    a lot to actually get the reservation, which is their right by the constitution. So in this

    six decades of rule by different parties in india(congress specially), around 70 percent

    of dalits still do not know how to take their right or there is something called as

    reservation. Now that around may be 2 percent of all the dalits have actually made

    use of reservation and have got good positions in government, private and social

    hierarchy. These 2 percent have now started to make impact on the decisioin making

    of the hypocritic central government. This is why all the upper section of society is

    feeling the heat. So now dalits do not want to depend on the upper castes to uplift

    them, but they want to take things in their hand. Upper castes will obviously scream,

    shout and spread false romours cause their hold is now diminishing. Dont worry,

    soon u will be seeing more mayawatis everywhere in this country and more and more

    people giving responses to the mindset of you people. Dalits are proud that few of them are reaching top and they know that they will also be pulled up. Dalits have taken things in their hand my frndn prax.

    So who said brahmins where not part of the movement against inequality. If you know there were many brahmins who supported, agitated with Ambedkar against inequlity. The brahminism that is withing brahmins, shatriyas and upper caste, are all dalits enemy. Even the shankaracharya has only a brahmin cook. There is no right for a lower caste person to infact get inside where shankaracharya lives. Search google to get the details of these morons. Ambedkar said there is nothing called a good Constitution or a bad Constitution. The quality of the Constitution depends on the working of the Constitution. He was convinced by everyone that the constitution will be implemented properly and 10 years would be more than enough. He thus agreed on it. Another reason why everything went wrong was because the implementation did not go right. The system which existed during British rule is not there now. We have provisions in the Constitution but we don’t have the mechanism to implement the programmes.

    Comment by Jacob — January 17, 2008 @ 6:05 am

  9. blah blah blah u certainly have the energy to write
    adore ur stamina – use it more constructively

    We have provisions in the Constitution but we don’t have the mechanism to implement the programmes.
    need i say more — i rest my case — u just said it

    Affirmative Actions which is still continued for around the same
    number of years as india has. agreed but the people who came out of it are a lot more fruitful that those who came out of the reservation policy

    lastly if Ambedkar could make it without reservation why cant u???

    ps it can also be argued that manu was noah as their tails were very similar and also that manusmriti means rememberances of manu…?
    and that he only described social order at his time ???

    u r a rabid anti brahmin admit it …. that shows ur inferiority complex

    Comment by Prax — January 18, 2008 @ 12:56 am

  10. Now that around may be 2 percent of all the dalits have actually made
    use of reservation and have got good positions in government, private and social hierarchy. These 2 percent have now started to make impact on the decisioin making of the hypocritic central government

    funny i thought that mayawati didnt use the reservation and look how big she has become in the political arena plus she has a brahmin by her side always now doesn’t she ?

    this is vote politics and placebo effect nothing else
    affirmative action for the deserving dalit right from age 10 should be the way to go not the dhakka mar system wherein a 50% or pass class dalit gets to do medical while the other students get 97+

    get real why do the ministers do foreign trips to cure their aliments??

    Comment by Prax — January 18, 2008 @ 1:00 am

  11. Ha ha ha…blah blah…i know u will start feeling the heat my frnd….hear it…I have the energy and u too…and i think i am thinking about contructing india the ideal way and not like you selfish morons who think that the butt of the weaker section should be kicked if they cant perform.

    Remember this, if u had been living in jungle for thousands of years and then suddenly someone tells you, u have reservation, perform, compete with the gangsters of knowledge, then….my frnd u wud had realised how much hardwork the dalits have done to reach here. Also if you have a mentality that why only socially backwards and not financially backwards should get reservation. Then i would tell, finally u support reservation, but to the deserving people. Once you agree that u support reservation, how do we decide why only socially backwards and not financially backwards. This formers were the people who never had the right to read and write(remember never), and the latter did have the right. So how do u match both the community are at the same level. Bring the socially backward at the same level in knowledge of the latters and then say financially backward. Also financially backwards of higher caste were never stopped by anyone to read/write and get up in their life. So why are they favoured now. Only handful of dalits are rich and you all feel the heat.

    For first 40 crucial years of the republic, it was the upper caste elite who was in control… and look at what that led to – 3 percent hindu rate of growth, widespread poverty and destitution… Arrival of mayawait actually was a reaction to the failed policies foisted on india by upper caste “first-rate“ minds… these first-rate minds delivered double-whammies on india – on one hand, they kept india poor based on their scewed socialistic theories and at the same time trumpeted india`s poverty all around the world – thus reducing the country a pariah both within and without….
    India`s pathetic condition today is primarily because of the failure of the dominating section of upper caste/upper class first-rate minds who failed spectacularly to take the country forward…

    We have provisions in the Constitution but we don’t have the mechanism to implement the programmes.
    This means that the mechanism was never prepared correctly by the congress party. Babasaheb Ambedkar was given bharatratna award in 1990 not by congress but it had to be V P Singh to honour him the highest honour of the country. So after around 40 years of independence a non-congress government remembered the contribution of Ambedkar to India, but congress could never. Thats why i feel, congress could had done so much thing but it simply never took it seriously. They will have to pay…only time will tell.

    agreed but the people who came out of it are a lot more fruitful that those who came out of the reservation policy — Can you please clarify more on this????….the statement seems to be more sarcastic.

    lastly if Ambedkar could make it without reservation why cant u???
    and why cant you??? make it like ambedkar? can you?? Ambedkar too had to get help from shahu maharaj for higher studies. You think it was a piece of cake for him. He was an extraordinary man and he knew that his community was too weak. What more could had been the plight of dalits at that time, that if a dalit wud had entered temple, then the temple was washed with cows urine. Imagine an animal was rated higher than a human being. Infact dalits were never considered human at all. I guess you have lived in mordern era, brought up in well off family, read history books in school, and like to make comments on net after reading some blogs…grow up my frnd…if you read more about dalits and their plight, about the peshwa rule, then u will realise that for animals to become humans is a very difficult task. It takes generations by darwins theory for an animal to adapt itself and compete. Ambedkar said, become something and then only u can do something for your people. He became and he did. Now few dalits have become something and they are doing. The situation will be more tense in the future, for the conflict of power, knowledge and money. A dalit responding to a facist, in english, on internet is what was the vision of Ambedkar. Ambedkar had vision even more that this…All will be equal one day…and it will surely become true.

    Manusmriti was hindu constitution written by the fanatic sage Manu. Do you know more about him? Manu and Noah comparision???? Could you shred more light on this… I am afraid….it sounds funny.

    u r a rabid anti brahmin admit it …. that shows ur inferiority complex
    I am against brahminism. It can be with a brahmin,shatriya or vaishya. But why i held brahmins responsible for it is because, they created it, they flourished on it and they want to keep it it green…
    You are against equality and humanity…admit it…that shows ur superiority complex…you cant see someone matching you. Dalits will one day surely wipe out this brahminism from the country and make this country its resources, power, education and money equal to all.

    funny i thought that mayawati didnt use the reservation and look how big she has become in the political arena plus she has a brahmin by her side always now doesn’t she ?

    Please let me know more about mayawati not using reservation for studies and election seat. I am unaware of it. As far as i know, she was first elected in pariliament in November 1989, winning Bijnore (reserved) Lok Sabha seat in Uttar Pradesh in the Ninth General Elections. Mayawati is a dalit from a mediocre family in UP. She did big because she has a vision and all dalits support her. Power will bring equality. She is going for power and all dalits are with her. Also wht do u mean that a brahmin is at her side always, a muslim is also the third man in BSP, Nashimudeen Siddhiqui. I am against brahminsim by frnd, Satish Chandra Mishra is among those brahmins who has come in the forefront and told everyone about the a vision of india when everyone will be equal.

    Vote politics??? So wht do others do? wht did congress did all this years??? My friend, vote is the most important weapon that democracy gave to every citizen of india, because of which even a big man has to greet a ordinary man. Vote is a power. Every party does vote politics and it does for the people who give votes. People who give vote want to be accountable to the country. Those elites who stay at home, dont vote and then scream that the country is going crazy, hve no right to open their mouth. If you people start voting then it would be u people lured by the politicians. Now you people are just the source of money for them. My dear frnds, I am so happy know that all ministers go to foriegn for treatment because indian doctors are inefficient. Also a dalit who has got 50% marks will only become a doctor if he passes all exams. And according to the education system, if he clears his exams, he is a doctor. Are there not other 50% of doctors who have scored 97% in exams???Why dont ministers go to them. There is no logic of ministers going abroad and reservation.

    Also, i feel, 85% of people in this country are backward and have only 50% of reservation. They compete in themselves to get their seat in this 50% cause they are all of the same level. Now the 15% of this country has 50% of open seats, in which they are not satisfied with. They want to grab the oppurtunity of the backward by taking their seats. Also I and you very well know these doctors, wht they do for the country after education..The noble profession is now a money raising career.

    When you go to a doctor, do u inquire if he is from reserved seat and then take treatment from him?????
    Answer me my frnd…..

    Comment by Jacob — January 18, 2008 @ 5:34 am


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